A.P. Fox ([info]aprivatefox) wrote,
@ 2008-04-15 19:46:00
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Current mood: rule-ish
Entry tags:game design, gaming, house rules, rules

if it ain't broke: thoughts on house rules
The topic of fixing issues in games with house rules has been on my mind lately, after some productive conversations with friends on the subject.

So, lucky you, here's a bit of brain-dumping on the subject of house-rules for games - why to write them, what they're for, what they're not for, and so on.

The first issue that comes to mind is "why does this game need house rules?" I can think of a few options:

  • Because it's a bad game
    There are a few variations on this one, but the heart of this is that the game, as written, is flawed in the broad case. There are a number of reasons why a game might be this flawed - (it was designed by someone with more theming than mechanical knowledge, or rushed out the door by marketing, or playtested by weasels on speed) - but we can only speculate on those. Instead, I'm going to subdivide this category by considering how it's a bad game, which should be somewhat objective.
    • There are no meaningful choices for the player
      This one's also known to some of my friends as "it reduces to Candy Land" - which, as [info]arkineux will be happy to tell you at length, isn't actually a game, because the player never makes a choice. I'm extending the category here to encompass not only games that have no choices, but also games where there is always a right choice, and the right choice is sufficiently algorithmic that a human can learn to play perfectly. (So, I'd count Nim or Tic-Tac-Toe as falling into this category - the games are solved and the solutions are learnable by a human. On the other hand, even though Checkers is solved, I don't fit it in this category - between two human players of reasonable ability, the game still comes down to heuristic decision-making, not memorization of the algorithm, because the algorithm is too complex for a human to reasonably use.)
    • The game is imbalanced
      There are a few ways in which a game can be imbalanced, but the general gist is this: One play position has a much better chance of winning than another. The most common version of this is a factional or play-order difference: the first player is more likely to win, or the player with a specific faction is. I'd also consider a strategic bias to fit in here, if the game purports to support multiple strategies - for example, if a game that permits players to trade-off military spending and domestic improvement strongly favors one or the other of those strategies, then the choice of strategy is a false one, and the game's probably imbalanced.
    • Some part of gameplay is irrelevant / The end-game is unrelated to the buildup
      These are two tightly-linked issues, that I think can be considered substantially the same thing. In either case, a large part of what you're doing simply doesn't matter. In Monopoly, this is the part where the game runs for two hours after the winner is decided, while the remaining players hemorrhage money slowly with no hope of victory. In Risk, this is the part of the game where ludicrous armies, fueled by bonus cards, sweep back and forth across the globe until one of the players gets a bonus combo large enough to actually end the game. In Killer Bunnies, this is the fact that the end-game is actually a lottery, and the odds of winning are only loosely related to your performance throughout the game.
    • The game lasts too long / moves too slowly
      While this one may seem subjective - after all, Advanced Civilization takes the better part of a night and day to play, and nobody's calling it an objectively bad game - there are some games that simply don't offer enough payout in terms of fun for the time they consume. These are games that could benefit from "tightening" - generally, the issue is not even the length of the game, but the amount of time each player spends doing nothing while waiting for their turn: the latency of the game. The classic Steve Jackson games - Illuminati and Hacker - are notorious for having this problem, as each player goes through a multi-step turn, with just enough need for other players to interact that they can't effectively leave the table. (Particularly Hacker, when the Internet Worm comes out and adds minutes worth of fiddly bookkeeping to every turn.)

    I should note that, while I describe these as "objectively bad," none of these can, by itself, kill a game - and gaming groups vary in their tolerances for these. (For example, I find irrelevant gameplay to be absolutely unacceptable - I won't play a game if I know there's a portion of play that simply doesn't matter in terms of the final outcome - but I'll tolerate a lot of latency issues for a game I like some element of, which is why I know so much about what can make Hacker drag its heels.) On the other hand, I think that all of these things are, in some sense, objectively bad - which is to say, I think that nobody would complain if a game had less of them.

    I should also note that all of this should be hurled bodily out the window when talking about "party games," or any other game-like activity in which the real aim is to facilitate socialization by providing structure. If nobody really cares who wins or loses, and the real fun of the game is in doing charades / playing Pictionary / watching your co-workers quack like ducks, then a very different set of rules apply, and I'm going to consider that outside the scope of what I'm thinking about right now.

    With all that said, on to the second class of reasons:
  • Because the game's not quite right for your set of players
    Not every game needs changing because it's bad. There are a lot of ways in which a game might be perfectly good - if some other people were playing it. But you're playing it, and you want to have fun, and that involves fixing the game. A few game/player mismatches I've seen a lot:
    • Too much / too little randomness
      Gamers tend to have a sweet spot for the amount of randomness they like in a game. Very few gamers like games that are completely random (remember what I was saying about Candy Land?), but it varies along the spectrum from there. If a game is more random than you like, it tends to feel like your choices are irrelevant: it's impossible to plan, and your skill isn't doing much to affect the outcome. (Lots of people feel this way about Fluxx and the other games from Looney Labs, for example.) On the other hand, if a game isn't random enough, it becomes harder for players of mixed skill level to play together. In perfectly non-random games, there are generally ranking and handicapping systems in place (such as in go and chess), to allow players of different skill to play without the outcome being predictable. Too little randomness, and the game can become less accessible: like go and chess, the game requires significant work before it can be played effectively. Many people would rather have fun than a perfect challenge of the minds, and a game with too little chance just feels like work.
    • Too much / too little aggression
      This is another matter of play-style. Some people want to get in the other players' faces, directly opposing them, taking actions to hinder them or knocking them out of the game. Other people prefer more indirect games, where their only conflict may be positional advantage - or there may be no conflict at all, simply a race to achieve victory first, with minimal interaction en route. A game with too little conflict for your taste can feel sterile, as if you're only playing solitaire, and there might as well not be other players. A game with too much conflict can feel bloodthirsty and emotionally draining - fights at the gaming table or recriminations are often a symptom that one player isn't comfortable with the degree of aggression that another player is putting in.
    • Too easy / too hard
      This one's very dependent on your players. I mentioned above that checkers was solved, but it's not an issue for most players. It is, however, an issue for tournament-level players, for whom most games end in a draw. So, they added a house rule that the first three half-moves of the game (that's one move, the other player's response, and the next move from the first player) are randomly selected from a playbook, which randomizes the opening enough to make it a viable contest of skills between the players. Regular checkers is too easy a game for them, so they've house-ruled it to be harder.
      On the other hand, I had the opportunity to play a word-making game with [info]projectmothra  a few months back, and he's only four years old, so he doesn't have quite as much command of the language as the game expects of its players. In order to make the game playable for him, we created house rules to loosen some of the restrictions on what words were permissible, until we'd arrived at a game that was just challenging enough to be fun. Most of the time, most games won't be so easy or hard as to be unplayable - but when it comes up, it's prime house-rule territory.

    There are others - I'm sure you can tell me some! Play-style mismatch between the players and the game can often show up as a set of rules that never get used, or as a faction that's not as viable as it might be. For example, the Order of the Stick board game is set up as a semi-cooperative dungeon-crawl, with the players bribing one another to help out, but the winner being determined by who has the most treasure at the end. There are abilities to actually attack the other players, but it's by no means required within the game's overall rules, nor have the groups I've played with found a strong incentive to do so. It's clear, however, that the game's balance depends on the players being willing to directly and overtly attack one another. Belkar's abilities are underpowered unless he chooses to fight with other players, while Elan's abilities seem to be a little overpowered if they're not being counterbalanced by players hitting him as a weak target. A mismatched play-style isn't necessarily a bad thing - a group of players that dislikes overt aggression should probably just stay away from Frag, rather than try to fix it - but in the context of house rules, sometimes there are games that need just a bit more randomness, or that could use just a bit less aggression, to be playable by your gaming group. That sounds like a viable candidate for house-rules to me.
  • Because it's a great game, but you need a change
    I'm not going to bother subcategorizing this one, because this really comes down to one scenario that's pretty common: You've got this game you love, but you've been playing it a lot. Everybody's getting kind of sick of it, because it's always kind of the same - which is a shame, because you love the game. You want to be able to play it some more. Enter the house rules: with a few small changes, you've got a game that's a lot like the one you love, but different enough that there's something new and fresh.
  • Because there's a small mechanical issue that keeps you from playing it
    This one's good and practical - the game doesn't quite work right with two players, but there isn't a third person to game with. The game as written will sprawl to fill the floor of the room, but you want to play it on the table, because there are animals / kids / Roombas around. Because the game relies on the Fiddly Electronic Bit that came with it and hasn't worked right since someone tried to take it camping and ended up getting it soaked. You need to adapt, because playing a modified game is better than flipping on the TV again.
So, there are some good reasons for wanting to write house rules for a game. On the other hand, if you wrote house rules for every game with a flaw, you could spend a lot of time writing house rules, and not get much accomplished.

So, there's a second part to this: "why does this game deserve house rules?"
  • Because it's almost good
    This is a nice, common reason to want to house-rule a game. It's almost - but not quite - balanced, or quick enough, or right for your playing group. A few quick amendments to a few rules and, poof!, the game's everything you wanted it to be!
  • Because it has a really neat element
    Sometimes, there's a mechanic that you wish you'd thought of first. It fits the game's theming, it's really neat - if only the rest of the game didn't suck! Think of the mechanic as a wonderful gem set in an ugly, ill-fitting piece of jewelry. Sometimes, you just need someone to re-fit it a little, and maybe adjust the design a little - with house rules - to really show off the beauty you know is there. (But sometimes, you need to melt down the rest of the piece and re-set the stone in something more appropriate. Sometimes the right way to save a neat element is to let it inspire you to write a game that sucks less.)
  • Because it has really cool components
    No, seriously! Some games have the most fantastic bits, high production value, gorgeous little sculpted miniatures for pieces - and the game itself sucks. (This is unfortunately common.) This can get into the space of house-rules that border on a total re-write, but I'm going to consider it house-rules, since you're under the major constraint that everything actually part of the components - the selection of what's available, any stats printed on little cards, funky custom dice - are mostly going to need to get used, one way or another, which means whatever game you're writing is going to wind up being substantially similar.
  • Because it has a really cool theme
    Sometimes, the theming makes the game. I mentioned Hacker before - now, to be honest, the game components in Hacker are kind of crap - there are about a billion little cardboard chits you cut out in order to play, and none of it's terribly pretty. It was put together by game designers, and it shows. But the theme is just fantastic, and that makes the game as it stands worth playing - so imagine what it would be like if you could just tweak it to play in less than a full evening.
  • Because it's really popular
    Monopoly has generated a lot of house rules, even though it kind of sucks. (For that matter, some of those rules - I'm looking at you, "money on Free Parking" - contribute mightily to the suckage. But that's a matter for another post that you might be able to bribe me into making.) There's an entire genre of games made by house-ruling chess. When a game is important enough to be a part of the popular culture, as opposed to merely a specialty pastime of the gamer subculture, there's a lot of incentive to play it - and when there's that much incentive to play it, there's also incentive to tinker.
  • Because it's really unpopular
    Okay, this justification may not work for everyone. But there is a special joy in finding a game that nobody has ever heard of in the bargain bin at some store, or at a rummage sale, or suchlike, and picking it up and grabbing a few similarly masochistic friends and setting out to make something beautiful. If all else fails, at least you get a good laugh out of dissecting the rules as written and wondering what poor sap at a long-since out-of-business game company got pressured to rush this one out the door.
  • Because it sucks so completely and totally that everyone you know would have to acknowledge your awesomeness if you could dredge even one iota of fun out of this miserable shell of a game
    (It's OK. Really. You can admit it. We all want to do it sometimes.)
So, there you have it - to the best of my ability, the reasons why you might want to house-rule a game.

What do you think? Are there other ways a game might be broken and in need of repair? Other issues of group-style that might need a bit of customization? Other reasons why a game might be deserving of that extra bit of love and attention needed to pull it out of the pit of suck?

I'm interested in hearing from some other gamers on this - I'm planning on doing a bunch of house-rule writing in the near future, and I want to get a good idea of the whys and wherefores before I roll up my sleeves and dig into some broken games.



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[info]darthparadox
2008-04-16 05:03 am UTC (link)
I think you've got the right idea. I would add one more to the second section:

"Because it's totally awesome except for this one glaring annoyance".

I classify Apples to Apples that way - the game is largely awesome, but there's a bit of frustration when you're looking at a hand full of crap, or you're judging and nobody's given you any decent choices. Maybe it's just a special case of "it's almost good" - but I also want to add house rules to games that are already good... but could be better.

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[info]darthparadox
2008-04-16 05:09 am UTC (link)
Oh, and you can't discount "Just for the hell of it". Coming up with house rules just to have new and interesting games to play is a valid motivation, too. Remind me to show you an amusing house rule for Yahtzee sometime.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 05:17 am UTC (link)
That's kind of what I was trying to get at with the last motivation - "because it's a great game, but you need a change."

But do show the rule to me. =)

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[info]darthparadox
2008-04-16 05:27 am UTC (link)
Ah, point. I forgot that that one belonged in the first section.

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[info]striderhlc
2008-04-16 12:26 pm UTC (link)
I dunno about Apples to Apples. Apples to Apples is really a party game- it's not about winning so much as it is about breaking the ice among a group of people who's just met.

On those grounds, a crappy hand can often yield the funniest results- when a judge has had two or three drinks and is trying to figure out if sharks are manlier than volcanoes.

- HC

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[info]mufi
2008-04-16 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Now, that makes me wonder - so, there are some games that are party games. There are some games that can be played as a party game, or otherwise - Hex Hex comes to mind; it gets everyone laughing, but there's still a "real" game under that.

Are there games that are only and necessarily (either without, or more interestingly even with house rules) party games, and if so, what are their traits?

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:47 pm UTC (link)
Ooh. I want to assert that there are, but the definition is being very slippery and hard-to-hold.

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[info]karrde712
2008-04-16 06:42 pm UTC (link)
No no no, sharks are manlier than Frank Sinatra, remember?

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[info]lediva
2008-04-20 01:13 am UTC (link)
Topic-irrelevant icon love from someone who spent a large portion of their youth playing StarTropics.

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[info]lumi21
2008-04-16 05:31 am UTC (link)
All I have to say is you should play Cutthroat Caverns, if you haven't already. It seems like you'd describe it much like OotS.

I've never had so much fun swearing at and threatening bodily harm to my closest friends.

Very insightful post, I agree with the vast majority of it!

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[info]darthparadox
2008-04-16 06:38 am UTC (link)
I just played that on Sunday. Delightfully backstabby. I ended up winning, largely on a technicality (being that I'd revealed my action before my would-be assailant could play his "Edge Out" card on me). The rules for precedence in playing cards aren't all that well written, but I can get unusually pedantic when it comes to games.

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[info]textualdeviance
2008-04-16 05:50 am UTC (link)
This is really an insightful way of breaking this down. M and play some video games together, but ultimately, we tend to have very different playstyles and different things we get out of games, and it's therefore hard for us to find something we both like and will continue to enjoy for repeat play. But maybe the problem isn't us. Maybe it's just that most games have fatal flaws.

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[info]karrde712
2008-04-16 11:23 am UTC (link)
House Rules Parcheesi and Calvinball come to mind as excellent reasons for inventing house rules.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:33 pm UTC (link)
You mean, the genre of games where the point of the game is to make new rules for the game? =)

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[info]striderhlc
2008-04-16 12:47 pm UTC (link)
I feel I should mention Hex Hex, which has more or less embraced house rules as a way of keeping the game fresh after multiple playthroughs.

- HC

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Hex Hex seems to me to be participating in the grand tradition of "evolutionary" games - Mao is the same way, and Nomic (pretty much by definition).

The initial rule-set provides for something, but the games start to diverge as various groups add layers of extra rules, and some of those rules stick and become "standard" for that group of people.

The advantage is freshness - the disadvantage is that not every player wants to be an amateur game-designer, and not every player can create a house rule that doesn't break the game. (When playing Hex Hex at Warren Hall once, someone added the rule that the Hex Hex card doesn't go to the discard when discarded, played or left in someone's hand at the end of the round, but is shuffled into the face-down deck instead. This was very funny for about five rounds - and then got increasingly tedious, as every damn round ended with hands in the air.)

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[info]rax
2008-04-16 12:56 pm UTC (link)
What do you think about adding rules to games that you know work to test if they would work when applied to other games (both new and old)?

Otherwise I think your list is comprehensive and intriguing. Thanks!

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 04:54 pm UTC (link)
I've never had call to do that - can you give an example of a situation? I think I understand, but I'm not entirely sure.

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[info]rax
2008-04-16 06:15 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm coming at this from roguelike (crawl.akrasiac.org) development and design rather than board/card game design for the most part, but often there's a particular rule or mechanic that I think would work really well in multiple games of a similar type. Example: In a game with a grid layout, a tool you can use to push another player in a direction some number of squares. You might use a simpler game and add in a tool to do this and see if it's fun before you build it into the complicated morass that is the main game. (Or you might get lucky and someone working on another game might implement it and you can steal it from them :)

To make a board game analogy (which may totally fail), say you've developed Three Dimensional Monopoly, and you are considering adding in a new rule involving hotels. You may want to add this rule to two-dimensional Monopoly and play a few games to see if it works out before putting it into your grand masterpiece. I can also see doing this with trick-taking card games; if I wanted to see how it worked to add a particular wrinkle into a complex trick-taking game, I'd add that wrinkle to something simple I knew well like Hi-Lo-Jack and run through a few rounds to get a feel to how it interacted with individual tricks.

This explanation would work better if I had an idea for a wrinkle to put into a trick-taking game... but hopefully that makes it clearer?

(Also, hi! I'm here via a shared community where you mentioned this post.)

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:20 pm UTC (link)
I think I see! I've never done that, but I certainly see the principle - in this case, it's less about house-ruling the original game, and more about using a house-rule for the original game as a petri dish in which to test a new rule before you try to merge it into a bigger, more complex game: if it's problematic in a well-understood rule-set, it's unlikely it'll be better when interacting with twelve other new rules.

(I figured you were here from the community post, since I've seen you on the members there, but not on my friends-list. =)

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[info]disappearinjon
2008-04-16 01:00 pm UTC (link)
Mike Daisey claims that, if you follow the rules to the letter, Monopoly takes an hour or two, total. It's actually the house rules (many of which people don't realize are house rules — when was the last time you actually read the Monopoly rules?) that unbalance it.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 04:59 pm UTC (link)
I've read the Monopoly rules extensively, looking for the source of the suck (and I know that many of the "common" rules are house rules, and horribly game-breaking) - and it still seems to run in the 2-3 hour range, rather than the 1-2. The winner, on the other hand, seems pretty clear by the 90-minute mark, or at least down to two viable candidates. The rest of the game is just prolonged death-throes for the losers, as they circle the board bleeding money and slowly mortgage properties. They can't afford anything new (so any unclaimed properties, once landed on, go to one of the big dogs), but the game needs them to keep playing, in a horrible limbo of not-fun, until they finally bleed out all their money.

That's really what I want to fix in Monopoly - not even the wall-clock length of the game, but the amount of time that players spend in the game with no hope of coming back to be viable.

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[info]bercilakslady
2008-04-16 01:01 pm UTC (link)
Filker's Rules Encore is a way that a fabulous game is rendered playable. Yes, it's a party game, but even within the "just for fun socialization" aspect of normal laxity about rules, this isn't fun at all without some changes in rules.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 05:01 pm UTC (link)
I'd love to see these rules! Encore was on my list of Games to Fix, and if there's already a fix out there - I've love to make Encore be Actually Fun.

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[info]bercilakslady
2008-04-16 06:12 pm UTC (link)
We tend to play without the board, just because it's a group party game, and people wander in and out during conventions. That said, there are pretty standard house rules for game play.

Filker's Rules:

http://www.mcgath.com/encore.html

* Only existing songs, which the other players could conceivably have heard before, are permitted. No creating songs on the spot. Players are trusted to be honest about this; take challenges offline.
* For a given round, only one set of lyrics to a given tune is permitted.
* If two tunes are generally considered interchangeable for the same lyrics (e.g., the different tunes for "The Cat Came Back"), they don't count as different songs. A parody of "The Cat Came Back," using a different tune, isn't allowed if "The Cat Came Back" was already used in the current round.
* Rule 4 under "The Sing Off" is broken. As it's written, the winning strategy is always to wait for the other player to start the timer. Instead, every round should be timed. Use a stopwatch rather than the sandglass included with the game; not only is the glass not very accurate, you have to wait for it to run out before flipping it. Start the timer immediately after reading the category, and restart it each time a valid answer is given. Every round continues until a team can't come up with a song within the time limit.
* Anyone who's acceptable to all players may run the timer.
* Certain categories should be ruled out in advance; if you get a card with this category, go on to the next card. For filkers, I suggest ruling out "Celestial Songs," "Songs About Space," and "Songs About Famous People." (Think of how long you could go just with songs about Jesus.) Players may also agree, when an interminable category comes up or after going back and forth too long, to skip it. A possible alternate rule, which I haven't tried, is to put a maximum number of rounds on any card, after which another card is drawn.
* Ignore item 4 on the questions page; punning answers, such as "Ford every stream" for "Automobiles," are not acceptable.
* In "The Grand Finale," it's ambiguous whether the challenged players have to come up with songs for all the categories in a single 30-second interval, or in 30 seconds per category. I've never been sure which way to do it, but really expert players should be able to fill the whole list in 30 seconds.
* Ignore the rule that the losers have to wait hand and foot on the winners -- please.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Hmm! This addresses some of the problems our group had when we played Encore. I think I'll need to get some friends together and try these.

To be honest, this looks like a big, needed fix (the rewrite of the broken Rule 4) and a smaller ambiguity-resolution (the bit about the Grand Finale), coupled with a number of rules needed to make it work in the particular case of filkers. I might try extracting the filk-specific rules and just using the fixed core rules to see what happens, and whether you can actually fix this game in just a rule-tweak or two.

(Also, I think I might want to take a crack at a general-purpose way of killing interminable categories without knowing what they are in advance - these seem to come up a little too often with my friends.)

Thanks for the new rules! =)

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[info]bercilakslady
2008-04-16 06:38 pm UTC (link)
You are quite welcome.

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[info]bercilakslady
2008-04-16 06:43 pm UTC (link)
I think the alternate rule listed here limiting number of rounds for each category might work for killing interminable categories. We tend to just start a category that might work and go from there, ending if we need to.

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[info]6ix7even
2008-04-16 04:46 pm UTC (link)
I think perhaps included as a reason in the "bad games" category would include those with unworkable, contradictory, or just plain missing rules. In some cases the rule may exist, but is so poorly worded that it might as well have not.

This is of course more common to RPGs and miniatures ("What do you mean, *I* was doing the chapter on conflict resolution?!") But there is a notable example of self-contradicting rules relating to the convoy mechanic in Diplomacy. Boiled down, it's a race condition caused by a convoy being invalidated by the very result caused by the success of the convoy.

For years the PBM groups and fandom developed "house rules" that were required to resolve these paradoxes. Official errata rules came with re-revisions of the game, but still have not resolved the paradox completely...

As another topic under "why does this game deserve house rules?" there is a pedagogical possibility: to teach game mechanics and design through the use of the game (or perhaps some other subject).

Certainly "minimum cover set Fluxx" taught people a lesson both about Fluxx and Graph Theory. :P

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Good points, both.

I'm going to need to work the "the rules as written have a hole" into future versions of this; that's common enough that I've made a number of those house rules myself.

The pedagogical role is interesting - it's taking things in a direction I hadn't been considering, really.

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[info]mufi
2008-04-16 06:34 pm UTC (link)
Two other ways in which a game can be a poor suit for a group of players, independent of its inherent "goodness":

Degree of player planning. This is somewhat linked to randomness - you can't plan much in a highly random game - but even so - Ticket to Ride and Power Grid have about the same amount of randomness, and a similar graph-theory problem at their core, but different amounts of planning are required to play effectively.

Degree of player value judgement. In a game like Apples to Apples, it's all about this - in a game like Yahtzee, this is nonexistent. There are other games all along the spectrum, and in some cases, a group may find that having players decide things leads to fights - or letting a random or rule-based arbiter leads to frustration.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Player planning is a huge issue, and now that I think about it - I wonder if it's really possible to tweak this one with a house-rule? It seems to me that, more than the other issues of poor player-fit, this one might just mean this group of players needs to choose a different game.

(On the other hand, a house-rule that could fundamentally change the degree of planning needed would be really cool - it might be worth looking for one just to find it!)

Value judgement, on the other hand, is both a massive issue, and fundamentally house-rule-able in most cases. (Perhaps not at either end of the spectrum - it would be hard to add subjectivity to Yahtzee or checkers, and it would be hard to make Apples to Apples less subjective, but even so.) It tends to come up around games that have some element of human knowledge, and judgment of what's acceptable or fair - and there are a lot of ways to make those either more subjective, or more rigid, to suit the taste of your play group.

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[info]mufi
2008-04-16 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Actually...

games that have some element of human knowledge

can be a need for house rules in an of itself. Especially in games where this takes the form of trivia - when the players have different knowledge sets, sometimes a house rule can bring things back to being fun. (Skipping questions that the group agrees are inapplicable for a certain person, or forming unequal-size but roughly equal-knowledge teams..)

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Ooh. Very true. I'm recalling the seven or eight times that a variant of "this friend grew up without access to TV / in another country / as a Mennonite" has been a cause for house-ruling among my friends.

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Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]krdbuni
2008-04-16 09:43 pm UTC (link)
Here's a question for you:

What's your take on the idea of a game whose rules are inherently contradictory, in order to mandate the presence of house rules? Specifically, I'm thinking of Yu-Gi-Oh. The main way in which Yi-Gi-Oh differentiates itself from Pokémon and similar games is that the rules of the card game itself contain ambiguities. For example, card A says "this attack cannot be blocked" and card B says "this blocks all attacks." Both get played in the same round. Which takes precedence? Is playing B after A even a valid play? The core rules of Yu-Gi-Oh leaves this unanswered and mandates neutral ajudication, which forces the evolution of "house rules" in cases in which no neutral party is available.

Kristy

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]krdbuni
2008-04-16 09:46 pm UTC (link)
I should note that this is, at least in theory, not because the game designers suck, but because the main conceit of the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise is that these decks are all for "tournament" competitions, and all tournaments have judges, so the rules incorporate a need for a judge to make the game seem more "true-to-concept."

Kristy

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 10:04 pm UTC (link)
In my response, see the bit about thinly-veiled contempt. I understand why it's there, but I think it's somewhere between a marketing decision (to create a class of officially-sanctioned judges, making official play more legitimate) and a narrative excuse slapped onto bad design.

After all, the role of judges is just as essential in Magic: the Gathering, and M:tG participates in the "judicial tradition" of increasingly-stable rule-iterations, with updates of errata. In that environment, judges act as their namesakes: they interpret the rules as written, acting as an impartial party when the players cannot adequately determine the intent of the rules on their own.

Is it really necessary to introduce deliberately-undecidable points into the rules, just to ensure that players must have recourse to a judge? After all, the M:tG tournament environment proved that even in a supposedly unambiguous ruleset, it takes substantial expertise to know how to apply all of the rules to resolve every possible situation.

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 09:54 pm UTC (link)
In the case of Yu-Gi-Oh, where it seems to facilitate tournament play, the best I can do is curl a lip and say it's "interesting" with thinly-veiled contempt. In all other cases, I think I'd call it bullshit.

What this really comes down to, in my opinion, is the idea that rules should have an unambiguous spirit. There are valid reasons for ambiguity that I can see: When the ambiguity covers an edge-case that's rare in practice (perhaps a situation the designer never conceived of), or when the ambiguity reflects an aspect of the rules where it's hard to determine which alternative is more in keeping with the spirit of the game. Perhaps there are others.

The idea of a deliberate ambiguity galls me, however. It seems to me that it flies in the face of strategy: you can't plan a response to an action when you don't know whether your response is permissible under the rules as they're being judged today. This same dislike of arbitrariness, I think, underlies the system of precedent in law: the idea that once an ambiguity is resolved, it should remain so, even if the resolution can be changed with further deliberation. The process of resolving these ambiguities, in my mind, ought to be a process of moving from less certain rules to more certain ones.

Would be curious to hear other thoughts on this, though!

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]krdbuni
2008-04-16 10:51 pm UTC (link)
It's hard for me to say how I feel on the subject. I can at once see the benefit of a game system that rewards its players' attempts at creative interpretation of the rules and the use of such ambiguities as a strategy. I can almost imagine a Bureaucracy: The Game setup in which any play which can be interpreted to fall within the rules is a legal play. I can also see the screaming heebie jeebies that this would set off in some people, myself included at times, trying to plan strategies with incomplete-by-design information.

I suppose my only real supporting point on the subject also applies to case law, in a roundabout fashion. The idea that a ruling once made should stand implies that the ruling itself is a "good" one. In situations in which the first judge to make a call on a particular rule flubs it, a good game can be rendered problematic. For example, consider MtG's original "Time Walk" description: XB, Sorcery, "Opponent loses next turn." At least one player in playtesting said he had an I-win card when he played it. Now, that's poor grammar enabling a bad decision, but it could have drastically changed the flavor of the game had a judge ruled that a valid interpretation of the text.

Of course, this more than anything seems to be arguing less for ambiguity-by-design and more for intelligent judges. *grin*

Kristy

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Bureaucracy: The Game is called Nomic. We should play sometime.

In situations in which the first judge to make a call on a particular rule flubs it, a good game can be rendered problematic.
I thought I addressed this when I was saying that the resolution can be changed with further deliberation - clearly, sometimes judges make the wrong call (in law as well as CCGs), but I don't think that destroys the value of precedent. The idea is still that the game accrues good decisions, and the quasi-legal process scrapes the barnacles of bad judgment off the rule-set with time.

Taking your example, I could see it as plausible that a judge would make that error. But I also think more other judges would, when evaluating that precedent, go "no, wait, that can't be right" and appeal to a higher authority (in this case, the game designers). With a bit of iteration, the spirit of the rule will shine through.

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]krdbuni
2008-04-16 11:33 pm UTC (link)
I've played Nomic. The group with which I played it got about... six or seven turns in and then melted down. I wouldn't mind taking a fresh pass at it, though. =n.n=

As for the rest, I agree that it can be fixed. I just wanted to throw in a caveat that precedent being the first judgment isn't always the best. The rest, absolutely.

Kristy

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Re: Deliberate ambiguity?
[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-16 11:42 pm UTC (link)
I think my core point still stands, though - I think leaving deliberate ambiguity in a game's ruleset is bullshit, because the principles used to turn ad-hoc judgment into improved rules are extremely well understood.

=)

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[info]circuit_four
2008-04-17 07:16 am UTC (link)
Awww, I was hoping you'd come down AGAINST house rules so I could have the fun of making a devil's advocate argument against ya. <3

So instead, for now, I'll just say I'd REALLY love to hear more about this word game with Rhys!

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-17 05:30 pm UTC (link)
If you'd like to pretend I came down against house rules, I am perfectly happy to locate a stick, insert it firmly between the cheeks and argue the other side, just to see your argument in favor. =)

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(Anonymous)
2008-04-25 04:40 am UTC (link)
This post had me thinking, "I should figure out some house rules to fix 'Order of the Stick,' and post them on-line. Wait, I'll bet someone has already done that: I should search for it."

So that went on my to-do list. I did the search tonight, and turned up zilch. Your journal was hit #27, though.

I guess that means I'm stuck with the task. [Sighs and reaches for the to-do list.]

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[info]blimix
2008-04-25 04:40 am UTC (link)
Oops. That was me.

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[info]aprivatefox
2008-04-25 06:18 am UTC (link)
For what it's worth, [info]darthparadox, [info]seorin and I are working on doing a bit of recreational game-repair, and that one is assuredly on our list, too. =)

It would be really nice to have the game be just a little bit better, less laggy, and more fun... We'll have to compare notes on fixes!

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